Kudos & Concerns regarding D2x-w32

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Wed May 25, 2005 5:33 pm

Being out of the loop on this project for months I decided to download 1.4.5 last night. After an early upsetting discovery and a clean re-install of D2 + v1.4.5 it is amazing to me how much you've improved things Diedel. So many wonderful enhancements and yes, even the midi volume slider works for me on this version

I don't think enough can really be said about what you've done with this program Diedel. Mostly for the better of course. There are some concerns though that I have about what D2x-w32 can do now, and some things that have yet to be resolved.

Gameplay Options:
It was brought to my attention last night on Kali that a few complaints are being made about people using D2x-w32. That some of the options allowed within it are hack advantages against people using older versions of Descent. This is a legitimate complaint IMO, but not one that would hold water if there was a D2x-w32 ONLY option while hosting multiplayer games. In this way only those that have similar or the same versions of w32 that the host has can join the hosted game.

I'm also wondering now that it might be a good idea to make it where D2x-w32 isn't able to join games hosted by people using farely old versions of Descent (DOS D2 v1.2 & D2_3DFX). On the one hand it might be a deterrent for people to upgrade or on the other hand if more people are using w32 it would force players using older versions of D2 to upgrade. This is all based on if the enhancements are being implemented in multiplayer games using older versions of Descent though.

The reason I bring this all up is because a friend of mine told me that he has noticed players in games die and when they respawn they always respawn in the spot where they died. This allows them to always get back the powerups they had when they died. He says it is because of players using D2x-w32 (I think he is using one of the last releases from the original D2x project). I'm wondering if he is just seeing players die in a respawn spot and they just happen to be respawning again in that spot or if some of the options in the "Gameplay Options" menu, if checked, are causing an adverse effect on older versions of Descent. I can't verify this phenomenon because it isn't something that I've seen first hand.

Do the options in this menu affect singleplayer only or the game on your end in both SP and MP? or is it a matter of some only affect SP and some affect both?

Screenshots:
Screenshots are still an issue for me. It reports that it is dumping the screenshot after alt+F9 and the .png is placed in the directory but there is no content when you open the screenshot still. Just black space. The good news is I can alt+enter and then prtscrn and paste into a graphics app. to get a screenshot. This is still something though that might need to be addressed. Vague, I know, I'm sure on your end it does work. Just thought I'd let you know though.

Final Comments:
Other then the cockpit adjustment views and the zoom ability not working for me (I'd explain why, but I don't know). D2x-w32 is pretty solid now. I'm very impressed with the work you've done on this Diedel. I'm anxious to get a game in with Ferno if I run into him on kali with this latest stuff. A game on hotshot with dual missiles would be awesome

Again, great work man.

p.s. you have -noredundancy twice in the D2x.ini. Ironic, isn't it?

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:55 pm

Tyranny wrote:Gameplay Options:
It was brought to my attention last night on Kali that a few complaints are being made about people using D2x-w32. That some of the options allowed within it are hack advantages against people using older versions of Descent. This is a legitimate complaint IMO, but not one that would hold water if there was a D2x-w32 ONLY option while hosting multiplayer games. In this way only those that have similar or the same versions of w32 that the host has can join the hosted game.

I'm also wondering now that it might be a good idea to make it where D2x-w32 isn't able to join games hosted by people using farely old versions of Descent (DOS D2 v1.2 & D2_3DFX).

Theres also the non-frame dependant net code, but IMO they can just deal on that issue. As for a D2x-w32 only option, that would be very welcome. The only problem with making a d2x-w32 only option, and not allowing d2x-w32 players not to join games hosted by older clients is that alot of people on kali still use d2_3dfx or the original d2 1.2 exes.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:18 am

"That some of the options allowed within it are hack advantages against people using older versions of Descent."

Just out of cuiosity, what would these be?

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:22 am

Tyranny, with D2x, you have the ability to create UDP games with yourself as the only player, so you ought to be able to explore many of these concerns like the spawn issue for yourself. I've never seen anything like it though.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Thu May 26, 2005 3:32 am

Tyr,

if any settings in D2X-W32 give D2X-W32 users an unfair advantage over non-D2X-W32 users, I'd like to know about these, with a description as exact as possible of what the advantage consists of.

To have zooming work, you need to set the proper zoom option in the gameplay options menu. It will not work in multiplayer. It will also only work when you have selected the Vulcan or Gauss cannon as primary weapon. Maybe you did all that and it still doesn't work; I'm only writing this to fill you in on any details you might have overlooked.

This is the first time I've heard of this respawn issue, and I've never seen it myself. Ships can only respawn in the start locations the level author has placed in the mine. If it happens otherwise, that's a clear bug.

Regarding non-D2X-W32 compatibility: D2X-W32 can at least find out whether the game host is D2X-W32 or not. If not, I can and will make it disable all multiplayer-relevant D2X-W32 extensions (have already done so for a few, but lost this issue out of sight over adding so much other stuff).

Please hint all non-D2X-W32 players to this thread and urge them to make constructive additions to it if they feel it to be necessary.

Thanks for your input and your compliments.

Diedel

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:48 pm

Alright, Zoom does work. That was something I overlooked, thanks. Knowing the people in the kali community, just the fact that D2x-w32 has more options and abilities available to you, whether or not they affect MP or not, is enough for players to cry hack. We know that just by upgrading they would have the same application as we have, but this is a very "elitist" community. Some people are outright stubborn when it comes to changing things. Even if it is for the better. I think others who have been around as long as I have on Kali can agree with me on this one.

Which is why I believe that a segregation from the older Descents and a D2x-w32 ONLY multiplayer option might be a wise way to go. I think those of us who use it will make an effort to push those who don't use it to upgrade if they want to play with the rest of us. That is generally what ends up happening anyways. The only reason I brought anything up was because I noticed some people make some complaints the other day directed towards D2x-w32 and I took exception. Just based on the fact that some of us tested to the extent of our abilities to make sure that this program was solid and an improvement on the original D2. Which I believe it is.

So I was kind of hoping that some of you who've still been here this whole time would maybe comment or offer observations of your own on complaints overheard or personal experiences witnessed while playing others who may or may not be using D2x-w32. I stopped keeping tabs on what was going on shortly after D2x-w32 was being labeled by version numbers (Another great move btw).

Jeff, your suggestion is noted, but concerns of this nature are better addressed in actual combat situations with other real players. Like I said before, there was nothing to substantiate my friends claim that I've personally seen so far. Which is why I'm more inclined to believe he's exaggerating events. Also, Ferny, I hope you understand where I'm coming from now that I've elaborated a little more. There is nothing wrong with the application as it stands now other then a few miscellaneous things that may or may not be more user end related (vid drivers, etc...) in my opinion. So no real complaints from my perspective. I think what has been done with D2x-w32 is wonderful.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:57 pm

For one thing, the ability to put the automap in the cockpit is an advantage...

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Fri May 27, 2005 12:09 am

Indeed, although, from what I can tell, this feature is only available when "show players on automap" is toggled. But it should probably have a seperate toggle or be completely unavailable for balance.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Fri May 27, 2005 1:11 am

Why would the automap on the cockpit be an advantage? The only way it would be an advantage is if "Show players on automap" were turned on, as Jeff thought you meant.

It is really only a possible advantage if say, someone hosts a game with that enabled and the other people who join are using older versions of Descent. If everyone who joins is using a D2x-w32 version that supports that feature then everyone will have the ability.

Personally I feel that special automap features such as showing players or powerups should be automatically excluded from multiplayer use. It could be abused, potentially, in so many ways by certain people. Not only against players not using D2x-w32, but also against people who are using the same application and don't even realize that ability had been turned on or is even there.

Certain cosmetic upgrades such as colored weapon lighting could also be twisted as an advantage in multiplayer. Much like using the bright player ship trick where you can use the ship glow to time ambushes or trick shots against people using older versions. If you're able to see the colors of weapons used, not only do you have a better idea of where the player is, but you also have an early tip-off of what weapons they're possibly favoring or using in certain situations.

I'm also wondering about the affects having "dual-missiles" checked would have on multiplayer games joined by players using older versions. I know if everyone was using the same version or a version that supports that functionality they would be able to fire dual missiles as well. What happens to those who join a game with that option enabled and they don't have D2x-w32?

This is why, to me atleast, it would seem best if D2x-w32 wasn't able to join D2 v1.2 or D2_3DFX games or vice versa. For that matter even the last version of the regular D2x could also be included with those. Too many variables that could alter multiplayer gameplay because of the differences between applications being used.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri May 27, 2005 3:37 am

Tyr,

from what I understand it was a single person who complained about D2X-W32. I believe that some people get overly sensitive to potential hacks in constellations like they're using an older and an opponent a newer program version. I am pretty sure the situation with a player respawning right at his spew was because he accidentally got killed near a spawn location.

D2X-W32 is being used by quite a few ppl, and some of them are very diligent testers with a keen eye for deviations from standard behaviour by D2X-W32 and would certainly report gross bugs like that.

I'd like to encourage everybody to report any such things as well as new ideas for D2X-W32 in the bug report and suggestions thread.

Crazy,

D2X-W32 clients know whether the game host is D2X-W32 or not: D2X-W32 sends all the new settings in an extra data packet with a new signature. If a client doesn't receive that data, it assumes the game host is not D2X-W32.

I have already added code to suppress all D2X-W32 exclusive multiplayer relevant game features (e.g. dual missile launch) if the game host is not D2X-W32 last night, and I will make D2X-W32 inhibit colored gun lights if the game host is not D2X-W32.

I don't see any advantage in having the automap in a cockpit window though as long as players aren't visible there, which can be controlled by non D2X-W32 game hosts as well. Usually MP levels are small and well known to each player, so you don't really need the automap there anyway.

It's a different story for zoomed rear views (anybody every noticed that?), so rear view cockpit window zoom will be suppressed when the game host is non-D2X-W32 as well.

Stay tuned for an update note.

Diedel

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:00 am

Tyranny wrote:I'm also wondering about the affects having "dual-missiles" checked would have on multiplayer games joined by players using older versions. I know if everyone was using the same version or a version that supports that functionality they would be able to fire dual missiles as well. What happens to those who join a game with that option enabled and they don't have D2x-w32?

It works. Descent's packets are lenient enough to let you do this (and other weird things, but I won't go there).

Let's just say, if I can see a guy firing hex homing missiles in D1x 1.43, which didn't expect stuff like that, I would be surprised if any version of D2 didn't.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:44 am

If such a player joins a game with a D2X-W32 game host who has enabled that option, he will see D2W-W32 player s fire dual missiles, but not be able to do so himself. Dual missile launch actually fires two missiles right after the other, so it's basically two extremely fast single missile launches (after which the usual missile firing delay jumps in).

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Fri May 27, 2005 5:52 am

Kali wankers are wanking..saying D2x-W32 sucks and is a HAck...because they can not use FPS as an advantage in D2X-W32, so they revert back to their Hacked Descent2.exe file... nothing new we all know who they are... shall i start droping names?

----------------------------------------

The multiplayer enhancements only apply if:

HOST launches D2X-W32 and ENBABLES them.....

----------------------------------------

So to put the the kali wanker in their place:

SAY "you host and STFU"

See how easy that is!!!

----------------------------------------

Tyr: you really need to be talking to the people on kali who are using this version and have been giving input and bug reports.. As usual there are people who just complain about things that cause change that may create a level field of play!

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:10 am

Tyranny wrote: This is why, to me atleast, it would seem best if D2x-w32 wasn't able to join D2 v1.2 or D2_3DFX games or vice versa. For that matter even the last version of the regular D2x could also be included with those. Too many variables that could alter multiplayer gameplay because of the differences between applications being used.

Much like using the bright player ship trick where you can use the ship glow to time ambushes or trick shots against people using older versions.

D2_3Dfx has had this enabled ALWAYS....

NO matter what the HOST sets, the 3dfx user will always have bright player ships and level glow in relation to all players. So what would be the difference in a weapon glow, it's not like you can not HEAR IT~!

well then using absolute rules:

D2_3Dfx should only be able to join D2_3Dfx games.. since it is an obvious advantage and has been for almost... what... 6-7 years...!

Why do people twist meaningless hypothetical situations into seperatist actions without even having the correct facts they are using as reasons...?

need more coffee

oh and refer to last line in previous post.. But don't get me wrong... it's not like I use that feature, for me it's about the gameplay and the support for all O/S and Hardware... not just windows 98 and a 3dfx card

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:17 am

I will definitely not inhibit non D2X-W32 Descent versions to join D2X-W32 hosted multiplayer games. Everybody is free to use D2X-W32 (or port it to Linux/Mac OS X ... hint, hint!

).

The only occasion non D2X-W32 players cannot join such a game is if the game host chose to use a D2X-W32 level (which is my new level format supporting the all my neat non-standard extensions, like teleports, speed boosts, colored walls and lights ...).

Btw, I can only support Bubba (apart from the tone

) when he says that D2X-W32 is less of hack than all the other D2 versions out there ... when it comes e.g. to frame rate dependent stuff.

BUBBALOU · Post by **BUBBALOU** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:32 am

Yes, my posts lack discretion and/or prudence

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Fri May 27, 2005 2:36 pm

Tyranny wrote:Why would the automap on the cockpit be an advantage? The only way it would be an advantage is if "Show players on automap" were turned on, as Jeff thought you meant.

Actually, I meant exactly what I said.

From my test, it appears that you can only use the automap in the cockpit when "show players on automap" is enabled. Otherwise, you can't-- it's unavailable to use. But D2x has been recently updated, and I haven't snagged a copy yet.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Fri May 27, 2005 3:18 pm

I wasn't aware that D2x-w32 could detect what versions people were using and neuter itself accordingly until now. So it really isn't as big of a problem in the long run I guess.

Bubba, for the record hardly anybody uses D2_3DFX anymore. When they did they still forgot to uncheck bright player ships for those of us who were using DOS D2 v1.2. You could also say they had a graphical advantage in visual clarity. Thats like saying someone playing a game on high res with all the settings on has an advantage over people who are playing on low res with all the settings off.

Hell, back in those days I used to play D2 with the screen completely minimized just so I could get close to 60fps and still could beat down 3DFX users. Which eventually I used when my first V2 finally came around.

Bubba wrote:Why do people twist meaningless hypothetical situations into seperatist actions without even having the correct facts they are using as reasons...?

I started this thread to get the facts. I know now all the little spiffy special things w32 does will only work in multiplayer with other w32 users. There are always going to be those who cry hack regardless of what precautions you take to safeguard against it.

Also, being one of those Kali guys who was bug testing w32 several months ago I felt obligated to bring up things about the new features put in since the last version I played. I just wanted a better idea of what the application could do now.

Jeff,
My bad

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri May 27, 2005 4:16 pm

Tyr,

I think Bubba's rant wasn't directed at you.

Afaik the bright player ships option needs to be unchecked to display bright player ships in standard D2 and D2X (D2X-W32 has fixed that).

Your discussion here is appreciated as it actually is an occasion to clarify questions and concerns like yours regarding D2X-W32.

Diedel

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sat May 28, 2005 5:26 pm

The easiest way to create a D2x-only game is to create one via the D2x tracker.

Kudos & Concerns regarding D2x-w32

Kudos & Concerns regarding D2x-w32

Re: Kudos & Concerns regarding D2x-w32