Descent 1 1/2

[Superbobby]

Just an update, I've put some work into level 50, which I'm tentatively calling Chi Institute. Here are some screens:

[Xfing]

Dear goodness, now this isn't a theme you see every day! I'm really liking these screenshots :O

[Sirius]

Updated level 27 with items, a few robots (mostly still empty but I set up the ambushes and robot generators) and a handful of fixes for things that weren't working/looking as intended. Some of that might have to change in a balance pass in future but still, it's something to work with.

P.S. There's a .hog version now too.

P.P.S. I forgot to actually do so, but the grated-off sections under the floor near the start are meant to contain robots that can shoot at you as you go past. Good place for Bulk Destroyers/Ice Spiders, since you can't get anything they might drop.

[Xfing]

Well yeah, a tease like that would be quite nice, like say a gauss or a helix cannon when they're still not normally available. Not sure they won't be by that point though

[Phozon]

Made a load of progress on this level. Only need a small area to place the red key (in the room with all the red hulks). And then fix up the reactor room.

Does anyone want to take a look at it? Advise me on any parts that are awkward/should change etc.

The robots should not at all be final and are all over the place type-wise atm.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/gzwkllj8v7zlm82/quao.zip

[Xfing]

Well I flew through the level and it's impressive, very D1-like but also really nicely made, beyond the quality that Parallax offered. I'm also amazed that you pulled this off in DMB2. The robots are of course way too hard and numerous in the context of the mission pack, though if it was some one-off level, they could probably work. I like the texture theme too.

Unfortunately, this level is in D1 version still, and if you plan on continuing without converting, you'll have to do it at some point anyway. Or I will, which I don't feel like doing today (already falling asleep here, soo). Also I don't think you can do all the required work in DMB2, though I might be wrong on this. I'd appreciate if you handled the conversion yourself.

Anyway, the level has every hallmark of a memorable D1 level. Well-designed, great landmarks, good detail, fun and characteristic layout - it's a yes from me

[Phozon]

Oh yes, i knew i forgot something. It's easy to convert to d2 over here EXCept for all my door lights changing to D2 only textures and me not having access to the d1 ones. I have to remember how to get it to use a custom texture file :S
(I know the link in the top post).
oh And thank you for looking and compliments! !

I don't think I can see .pog files, only .pig files. That's probably bad, right?

[Sirius]

.POG files are used in a different place from .PIG files - they'll show up in the HOG management dialog, though unfortunately DMB2 is somewhat reluctant to actually show you that dialog. You can also import textures one-by-one and it will create that .POG for you and place it in the .HOG file.

Xfing - DMB2 can do most of what DLE can, at least if you have enough patience. The main drawbacks are that the texture alignment features are less powerful (I used to align around corners manually... most tedious part of level editing bar none, which is why most people didn't even bother) and it likes to delete things it doesn't know how to use from all your .POG and .HXM files.

Anyway, yeah, this level looks very D1. Although I wouldn't expect to see that square pillar in the central-ish room in a D1 level, but it's not weird enough to feel wrong. The energy towers might need a little tweak in that Parallax didn't tend to wrap the yellow grid texture around all four walls (though there might be counterexamples I'm forgetting) - it almost feels more DKH (a well-known 1v1 map designer) than Parallax there. If it were misc059 on opposing walls and something else in between to break them up, it would fit in better.

P.S. Am I correct that the upper levels were built later? They seem to use cubes dramatically more economically than the lower levels. The fact that you don't really notice - because it's still pretty well textured - means it isn't actually a problem, but I imagine your future levels will get bigger as a consequence.

[Sirius]

Just added robots to level 27, which should put it in a quasi-complete state. I haven't actually tested it so I can't vouch for its non-horribility, but it doesn't do any good to rebalance it until the context (i.e. surrounding levels) is in place anyway, so this'll be the last update I make unless someone finds a glitch in the level.

There were a few things I came across in the process of building it that I thought DLE could do a better job of, so I might make a couple tweaks to that while thinking about how to approach the next level... if the website update gets delayed much further I might just roll them into the same version so it doesn't have to get published twice, but we'll see.

[Xfing]

Thanks for the updates, Sirius!

Phozon - if you find the conversion process too tedious or unwieldy in DMB2, try DLE, its recent versions make the process much more convenient overall. The template POG files are there primarily to save you the trouble of replacing monitor textures frame by frame, that can get super tedious unfortunately. I expect there to be D1 monitors in a D1 level, so you'll probably have no way around it anyway

[Sirius]

Since finding a working link for DLE is a problem lately, the currently most-fixed-up version is here, if you need it: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hl532jlbbn0ah ... 30.7z?dl=0

[Phozon]

finding a working link for DLE

haha! Perfect timing, great forethought !

I remember trying to use DLE a long time ago, but all the textures were completely messed up all the time and I gave up. Now i'll try with a more recent laptop though.

..aaaannnd my antivirus says it's a trojan :/

oh Interestingg
https://i.gyazo.com/cc300dec05a89518813 ... 4f14e0.png
Is this a known thing?

[Sirius]

Hmm. Not that I can think of. I wonder what it's picking up that makes it flag it that way. The "HEUR" indicates it's looking for patterns that look suspicious, rather than comparing against known malware... but I'm not sure whether it has anything that would help figure out what.

P.S. Strange. I found the site that does that multi-engine check thing, and it only seems to trip on this specific version of DLE.exe. The debug and work-in-progress builds I have go through all of the engines fine...

[Xfing]

Sirius, I have no idea how you did that, or whether it was even intended, but weapons and missiles don't work in the level at all. They get cancelled out right after they're shot, both for yourself and the robots. Weird as hell ;x

[Phozon]

That sounds like a thing you can do in certain areas of descent 2 where there are so many items and robots loaded in the area, that the game despawns new ones, including your and robots' bullets

[Xfing]

That totally shouldn't be happening tho :lol

[Sirius]

Ugh. I know exactly how I did it; I was running so close to the object limit I had to start cutting things out to fit them all in. And still forgot that even staying close to the limit causes exactly the problem you're seeing.

I'll have to take another look. Probably need to delete some less-essential powerups.

[Xfing]

Yeah, after a couple robots are destroyed the projectile behavior returns to normal. Gotta say though that you populating style is very spammy, reminds me a lot of The Apocalyptic Factor. Alex would love this level, but Alter-Fox would probably hate it with a passion, haha

[AlexanderBorisov]

I believe it is a good sign, if people either love or hate the level/mission. That is what happened to the best missions like TEW, Obsidian, etc... And I definitely think you need much more than two opinions to decide about the difficulty of the levels and robot placement - although the ultimate decision is yours.

[Sirius]

Yeah it's hard to claim that a resemblance to AF levels is a coincidence given I built several of them... the goal is more like Limefrost Spiral though, just need to look closer at what they did than just the numbers.

[Xfing]

Well I don't mind heavy resistance, but what Alter-Fox said about empty areas adding to the ambience is absolutely correct. There are no buildups of tension in a level that's got enemies everywhere. But right now the most important thing is to remove the bug from this level

[Sirius]

OK, updated again. There is still heavy resistance in some parts (mostly thanks to matcens) but it should be less insane. I'm not totally sure about the main room in the yellow door in the new version - I set a whole bunch of robots to "still" to avoid them all rushing the entrance at once (it turns out nothing stays where you left it on Ace)... but perhaps I should just use less powerful robots.

[Phozon]

Right! I think it's fairly finalised!


Enemies and weapons are cleaned up so as to not go too powerful. (Strongest pickup is quads and spreadfire in yellow area), but feel free to change for the pack balance of course. -Please may I request that you keep the double spider reference to original level 13 at the end

Sorry I can't really convert to d2 properly as of yet. well, i COUld but give it to you with all the door lights the incorrect d2 versions.

1 more thing. Not sure if this editor does automatic cube object lighting %, so a lot of robots might be too bright in darker areas. (again I think I COULd do this but it'd have to be manually for each cube, and you're gonna change the objects anyway)

Apart from that,,
~It's really on the small side
~I never know(/have forgotten) how to make exit tunnel sequences work:?

Here's the newest version: http://www.mediafire.com/file/gzwkllj8v7zlm82/quao.zip

[Sirius]

1 more thing. Not sure if this editor does automatic cube object lighting %, so a lot of robots might be too bright in darker areas.

Oh. Yeah, you're correct, it doesn't - you'd have to do that manually.

[Xfing]

Rebirth doesn't support D1 exit sequences yet, so don't worry about that - I think we'll be skipping those altogether, or maybe adding them in a future eye candy update.

As for converting to D2, that's how you do it, step by step. I'll give you instructions, and you'll decide whether you want to try for yourself.
1) Convert to D2
2) Select D2 equivalent textures to convert to. The trick here is to select random textures that the level won't use anyway for decoration textures, as many of those didn't get carried over to D2 and they get simplified to the baseline texture in the conversion process. Converting them to the simpler texture makes you completely forget where the decoration textures were in the first place
3) Import the template POG - this is primarily for the monitors. The POG generally replaces the monitors with the same respective ones that D2 replaces the D1 ones with, so it's a very quick operation and all your monitors should be OK (one exception being the spider monitor, which we're using another texture for to fix its transitional animations).
4) Replace the rest of the textures manually, such as the doorlights. If a doorlight has many frames, just replace every single frame with the D1 doorlight.
5) Next time, start in D2 right off the bat to save yourself the effort

Oh, and lest I forget - here's your level 4, so you can see the changes I made to the texturing, mainly regarding removing the excessive tape textures around the doors and replacing them with something more traditional. But I also increased texture variety overall, you should be quite happy with this:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jmk1cpm8q7zu ... g6B3a?dl=0

[Phozon]

3) Import the template POG
4) Replace the rest of the textures manually, such as the doorlights.

+here's your level 4,

I don't think I can do this
The texture palette available after converting to d2 doesn't have the d1 door lights. I don't know how to point it towards the custom one unless it is a .PIG file

+Oh yeah! I like the fairly strict typing of mostly only red enemies and spacing! And then I can't really remember what textures were different, things like the red+metal frame around the robot maker is refreshing.

The lighting seems 200% bright everywhere - which is a fairly big thing.

The choice of monitors/secondary texture in the first room is a bit weird as well as door light texture being slapped next to lava fall,
the supervisor bot contains nothing? which seems unlike normal d1 supervisors,
almost every bot in the big room at the start is set to still, which is slightly weird for class 1 drones,
walls where the same monitor tiles repeatedly and all smash at the same time suck imo
- These are all tiny things and don't really matter.

Excellent work overall sirs! Here's to the next 4 levels and so on and so on

[Sirius]

For the template POG, you would
* Open the .HOG file from the DMB2 "File" menu
* At the HOG manager dialog before you pick what level to open (assuming it shows it; if not you'll need a separate HOG manager app other than DMB2) it should have an "import" or "add file" button - I forget exactly what it's called. Click that and select the template POG.
* Rename the POG file to have the same name - but different extension (it has to still be .pog) - as the level, so D2 knows that it's associated with your level.
* Open the level. It should now have the custom textures available.

DMB2 scrubs the .pog file of unused textures on... I think saving the level, though, so you may have to repeat the process after editing the level if you're using monitors, since if I recall correctly it considers the frames after the first "unused".

[Alter-Fox]

Orrr use DLE just for this part since it legitimately makes texture work less icky.

[Superbobby]

Here's a WIP of Level 50:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/90eqdlbg7ozmc ... 0.zip?dl=0

[Xfing]

Whoa, what a level! The color scheme is nothing short of disturbing for some reason, the puzzles are confusing and the green slime working as lava is super innovative. There are a few things though:
- There is no way in hell that anyone's reaching that exit in time on Insane, even with the afterburner. It's gonna be a close call at best but I still foresee a failure like 8 out of 10 times
- The mazelike area near the exit - change the texture to something less risque, the matcen texture should be reserved for matcens proper
- Replace the yellow walls blocking the access to the red key with something less jarring
- While you're at it, why don't you replace the three robotlike color-coded textures with the simpler ones from D1? I'm talking about the colored "rock" textures.
- Reduce the number of different door textures used in the level, stick to one or two at most. The valve-like hatch texture leading to the large chamber is fine to leave in though. On the other hand though this is Vertigo and I think I remember similar things being done there, so guess it's OK
- Replace the monitor that lowers the forcefields that lead to the blue key with a proper switch - puzzles are fine but once you're stuck for 30 minutes trying to figure out just how to get to the blue key, something's wrong
- You've brought in so many D1 textures already, why not swap out some D2 monitors for ones from D1 and use both types concurrently? You'd probably have to replace the frames manually, but you could also use the templates and just restore the other monitors, or replace ones of your choosing manually while using the template for reference
- The wrench symbols on the sides of the reactor pit? Nah, something else would probably be better.
- Last but not least, since you're using the lab textures quite a lot, why not use some decoration textures from D1 here and there too?

[Superbobby]

Thanks for the fast feedback! Here is my revised level:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vc3w9i04p664z ... 1.zip?dl=0

[Xfing]

And thank you for the fast update! I'll have to check it out after work though, which is in like 7-8 hours. Excited!

[Xfing]

Ok, played through the level again. It's nice to see how quickly and attentively you responded to my feedback, every single point has been accounted for. Thanks for that! So here's some more impressions:
- You reduced the number of regular door types in the level to 2, which is cool - but the grated door was never traditionally included in the "1 door per level" restriction. I think it would actually be better if you had kept the grated door at the entrance to the blue area, since there's a waterfall there and it's more logical to have the water have some orifices to flow through
- While you did a great job on monitor diversity, I don't know what method you used to import the D1 monitors, but they have some minor graphical artifacts in them (they got slightly messed up in other words). This sort of thing usually happens either if a palette is switched when POG textures are already in the file, or if a texture exported from the wrong type of PIG is imported into one that's incompatible with it. The mess-up effect is usually much more severe than it was here, but it's still slightly jarring, please give it another look if you can
- Matcen triggers need to be set up. You might have thought that's for me to decide but no, the trigger locations are decided upon by the level designer. I'll only select the robots to be spawned from them when the time comes.
- Since you've changed the red, robot-like texture to the simple "rock" one, why not swap out that other red texture for this one back where the red key is located?
- The alignment of the lights at the top of the tubular area where the yellow door is is a bit irritating. Maybe you could rotate the lights 90 degrees or use a different type of them there?

Other than that there are some minor, arbitrary things I'd change, but that'll be probably done as tertiary mapping when the time comes to populate the level or something. If you take care of the things listed here, we'll be pretty much set as far as this level is concerned. Thanks and keep up the good work!

[Superbobby]

Here's my new revised level:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/39qgtju1sysyl ... 2.zip?dl=0

For the POG textures, in the Alien2 template I think the two large D1 monitors that show planets might be a bit corrupted; the one with the tan planet has a white outline on the bottom right corner, and parts of the blue planet one are see-thru on certain frames. I've removed the tan planet monitor in my level for the time being. I still have the blue planet monitor in the level, but the way I have it set up, the glitch shouldn't appear.

Other than that, I changed everything else you mentioned.

[Xfing]

Oh, I thought this level was under Descent.PIG, not Alien2. That actually explains a lot! I got thrown off by the color of the water, which was dark blue, but not exactly purple like it is in descent 2. I'm actually surprised you got this to work like you did in alien2. Good job! Gonna check it out right away.

EDIT: Ok, there are still some minor texture misalignments and errors left, but I'll take care of those myself.

[Xfing]

I converted Quaoar to D2. Easy peasy, though I did have to change some textures manually.

[TRUEpiiiicness]

20 levels to go until (I assume) the biggest part is done!

[Xfing]

Yep, we've got 40 layouts already done, which means we're 2/3 through! Pretty cool alright

[Phozon]

I converted Quaoar to D2. Easy peasy, though I did have to change some textures manually.

thankyou,thankyou !
hope my lighting isn't 2x brighter everywhere like the other one

do you ever stream doing stuff in the level editor?

[Xfing]

No, the lighting was actually appropriately dim this time. I might look into Mars and lower the lighting levels a little bit too now that you mention it. Those may have been my fault in the first place, not sure about that.

And I haven't really done any streaming of my editing work yet. I'm not a marvel to behold like Sirius is