Sidewinder Competitors?

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:42 pm

DCrazy wrote:I think you're misunderstanding because of the wording. I belive he meant that when using the stick in Windows, one must use "native" mode, not emulation mode. He was making no reference to other operating systems.

Oh I see now. Yeah, I probably misunderstood. I remimber it was possible to use it in D3 in emulation mode but it WAS pretty much useless because you couldn't press more than 2 buttons at the same time. D3 requires you to press sometimes all the buttons at the same time.

Mobius: I haev never noticed an accuracy problem with the 3d Pro, only when windows decides to flake on using it which is rare. It usually works fine once it is detected. I have had this stick sense way back in 1995 or 1996 when I bought Descent 1 and it is still working fine. You usually hear of sticks breaking by now. It has been a pretty solid joystick for me.

By the way, someone should start a poll thread on the best modern joysticks which are sold in the stores today. I'm interested to see which are the best, it probably is time to upgrade.

But before the poll is started make sure to get a complete list. Don't put the 3D Pro on there as it is not available any more.

Coolcat · Post by **Coolcat** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 5:07 pm

wow, where is that stfu mobius pic.

The 3dpro works fine on reguardless of fsb on:
winxp/2k (as a 3dpro)
win9x (as a thrustmaster flight control system)

as for it not being accurate...a tool is only as good as its user.

as for programmablility, you don't need it in descent.

"It is not as smooth, nor as quick as modern sticks."

if anything its smoother & faster due to its tight springs and short throw.

Honestly: a 9 year old stick that plays descent better than anything else out there? don't try to fix what isn't broken.

/owns 7 3dpros.
//will never buy another stick for a 10 yr old game.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:14 pm

Mobius wrote:For Goodness sake, if you are a 3D Pro fan, then do yourself an enormous favour and upgrade to a LOGITECH 3D Pro! Then you'll see what you've been missing.

Honestly: 9 Years old joysticks? You are living in a fool's paradise.

Been there done that. After getting used to a Logitech it performs as good as a 3DP w/ D3. Unfortunately Logitech sticks are POS'. I want a stick that lasts longer than a week. For it's 9 years the 3DP performs outstandingly and still has a wide fanbase in D3 -- guess why. Face it Mobi, just because you cant stand the idea that you may be wrong we won't change our opinions

I went thu at least 8 different brand sticks over the last two years and my favorites are the M$ FF2 followed by the 3DP. Logitech sticks are the bottom of the list because of their crappy component choice.

Coolcat wrote:The 3dpro works fine on reguardless of fsb on:
winxp/2k (as a 3dpro)

Nope. Wish it would tho.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:41 pm

"I see it's necessary to disabuse some people's notions about the SW 3DPro AGAIN! Most pointedly: it is a piece of ****! It's a 9 years old stick and it quite simply, performs like one."

baloney.

"It is useless, it is not compatible with many systems, is extremely hard to get working on a windows 98 box with an FSB over 100MHz."

baloney. I have it working on my 2k box. as an MS 3dpro.

"It is not accurate like modern sticks."

baloney

"It is not programmable like modern sticks."

baloney. get the sidewinder software and you can program it.

"It is not as smooth, nor as quick as modern sticks."

baloney. I've found it to be faster than most sticks.

"For Goodness sake, if you are a 3D Pro fan, then do yourself an enormous favour and upgrade to a LOGITECH 3D Pro! Then you'll see what you've been missing."

do us all a favor and SHUT THE F UP!

"Honestly: 9 Years old joysticks? You are living in a fool's paradise."

buy us all Logitech 3dpros if you think we're all fools. Of course you won't though.

"Disclaimer: The author owns at least 4 SW 3D Pros, 2 brand new and still in boxes. They'll never be used by me again - EVER."

then give them to us. save what's left of your reputation and do something productive for a change.

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:29 am

Unix wrote:I love your join date here Sup

uhh .. lol ... yeah, I think that should read 1999

unless we started this forum back in 'Nam.

Truthfully:

The DBB was an idea in my head at least 8 months before it was a reality.

So, the actual join date was much earlier than winter '99

But, as I recall, I was officially the first joined member of the BB.

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:33 am

Tyranny wrote:
Kali is still the place to find people to play D1/D2. You'll probably have the best luck on the Rangers server.

Yeah? Awesome. Diehards imo.

I used to be a Ranger. I googled my name and found my stats still on thier profile pages

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:40 am

bash wrote:After my last 3DPro died I switched to PPros but didn't like them. I settled on the Cyborg Gold with a few mods (like sawing off the big-azz hat down to a nub and removing the button covers) and found them a good crossgrade from the 3DPro. Keep in mind this was just for D3 (which I stopped playing many moons ago) and I never used it in D1/D2.

ah wassup bash.

So ... as someone who was kicka** back in the day, you continued to kicka** after you got used to the Cyborg Gold?

Or did your kill ratio go down at all? Be honest

If you say so, I'll take your word for it and go get one soon.

(already own the Nostromo n-52 pad for other apps, mainly music software but ... I can see where this thing would be perfect for D)

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:50 am

Mobius wrote:I see it's necessary to disabuse some people's notions about the SW 3DPro AGAIN! Most pointedly: it is a piece of ****! It's a 9 years old stick and it quite simply, performs like one.

It is useless, it is not compatible with many systems, is extremely hard to get working on a windows 98 box with an FSB over 100MHz.

It is not accurate like modern sticks.

It is not programmable like modern sticks.

It is not as smooth, nor as quick as modern sticks.

For Goodness sake, if you are a 3D Pro fan, then do yourself an enormous favour and upgrade to a LOGITECH 3D Pro! Then you'll see what you've been missing.

Honestly: 9 Years old joysticks? You are living in a fool's paradise.

Disclaimer: The author owns at least 4 SW 3D Pros, 2 brand new and still in boxes. They'll never be used by me again - EVER.

Strap, Kiln, Xciter, Koolbear, R2, Fatal, Delcio, Peartman, Sickone, Nirvana, Voyager, Bash here, and myself ... etc etc etc etc etc ..

.. might tend to disagree with you just a tad.

hehe!

IN all seriousness:

Unless you were around back then, you cannot concieve how fierce the competition was. It was brutal beyond your wildest imagination bro.

Cant say for sure, but if you are like any other average good player you probably would be lucky to get a single kill against any one of those people in a 10 match.

I'm not overstating the case here. Not a single kill. I saw it happen over and over again.

And they all used that stick.

Verran · Post by **Verran** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:31 am

We miss you Sup

come back!! Bring Sickone with ya, we miss him too

And Buef!

As far a joysticks go, I've tested a bunch for compatibility with 95/98/NT/2K/XP and D1/2/3 and so far the 3D Pro rox (STFU Mob). The only other I found to be a great alternative is the GenX 500 by Quickshot. It can be setup in 95/98 as a Thrusmaster Flight Control System and works just like a 3D Pro setup. One tiny mod: I replaced the hat with one from a Sidewinder Precision Pro (drilled to fit). Works well, IMO.

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:56 am

Verran wrote:We miss you Sup come back!! Bring Sickone with ya, we miss him too And Buef!

As far a joysticks go, I've tested a bunch for compatibility with 95/98/NT/2K/XP and D1/2/3 and so far the 3D Pro rox (STFU Mob). The only other I found to be a great alternative is the GenX 500 by Quickshot. It can be setup in 95/98 as a Thrusmaster Flight Control System and works just like a 3D Pro setup. One tiny mod: I replaced the hat with one from a Sidewinder Precision Pro (drilled to fit). Works well, IMO.

hey verran! Speaking of oldskool

I have no doubt you guys ran the full battery of tests and did it well.

So u are using the GenX 500? Yeah I can see where the hat on that thing looks like it is designed to bore a hole thru your thumb ... lol.

How is the throw on the stick? Is it short and tight like the MS 3D Pro?

Did you test the Cyborg? How did it do in D2?

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:21 pm

Ferno wrote:"It is useless, it is not compatible with many systems, is extremely hard to get working on a windows 98 box with an FSB over 100MHz."

baloney. I have it working on my 2k box. as an MS 3dpro.

Only true for your hardware -- others millage varies..

Excerpt:

Update 9/22/04: I have finally upgraded from Windows 98SE- I did a clean install of Windows XP with integrated SP2 and DID NOT install any extraneous Sidewinder drivers. My 3d pro was detected (after adding it as a new game controller in the control panel) and works with no problems- 8-way hat, base buttons, throttle, etc. I am using the game port built into my Asus A7N8X deluxe rev.2 mobo (1008 bios). I have gotten quite a few e-mails from people who have problems w/ XP detecting the 3D Pro- but it appears to work fine with XP SP2 on my hardware.

Xamindar, could you point me to the Linux source dealing w/ the 3DP -- I'm sick of breaking sticks and would like to build my own USB adapter (basing on this little puppy -- nice find Ferno

)

Verran · Post by **Verran** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:08 pm

Hey Sup. I don't use the GenX, actually, for the exact reason that it isn't short and tight like the 3D Pro. I've got it as a backup in case I run out of my supply of 3D Pros.

Main thing is that it works well as an alternative and is easy to setup.

I tested the Cyborg when it first came out. It sucks in D2 (haven't tested in D2x or D1(x) tho).

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:38 pm

Still using the Precision Pro here, and I have a over a hundred spare switches to fix the hat and triggers when they fail...

Coolcat · Post by **Coolcat** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:58 pm

Well the 3dpro works fine on my xp install.

abit NF7-S rev2 with a hercules sound card.
2.21 ghz
400 fsb(DDR)
333 memory(DDR)

bash · Post by **bash** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:05 pm

Sup, Sup.

It took me about a week to make the transition. The only thing I didn't like about it was the height. The 3DPro is nice and squat so one can control it with just one's wrist with the forearm pretty much anchored to the deck. With the Cyborg, one's forearm is higher off the deck a bit and that added a bit of flab initially which threw me off. IIRC I built up some additional padding under my forearm to get my wrist back in-line with the stick and raised my chair a tad to compensate. There's no doubt the 3DPro was/is a better stick for Descent but I was moving on to USB and had to say goodbye. Besides that I was sure if I went through ebay I'd end up with Bama's stinky leftovers and the hats would all be busted.

Bottom line is that the saving grace of the Cyborg was that I felt I could mod it successfully (sawed off hat, removing the button covers) so that it felt and reacted very close to the 3DPro so I could quickly adapt. Once the new thumb callous formed for the little hat nub I came to like the hat's short throw even more than the 3DPro. That and the Cyborgs are like $10 cheaper than anything comparable. I was averaging a new 3DPro every 6-8 weeks so I was all about cheap with whatever I chose to replace it.

Thenior · Post by **Thenior** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:49 pm

My 3D pro acts up on me on occasion, but it is very old.

The only prob I have is that I cannot find any programmable software or it using WinXP. Any help on that? I have the Sidewinder software for Win98 abd stuff, but no XP found here.

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:02 pm

Thenior wrote:My 3D pro acts up on me on occasion, but it is very old.

The only prob I have is that I cannot find any programmable software or it using WinXP. Any help on that? I have the Sidewinder software for Win98 abd stuff, but no XP found here.

I did a pretty extensive search for XP-compatible 3D Pro (or Precision Pro, for that matter) software, because I wanted to be able to map keys/buttons and do macros. I'm afraid it doesn't exist. :\ A real goof on MS's part, IMO.

If only some independent joystick mapping, etc, sofware could be found. I haven't done any really extensive searching in that area, so it might be worth a try.

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:54 pm

bash wrote:I was sure if I went through ebay I'd end up with Bama's stinky leftovers and the hats would all be busted.

lol ...

hmm any way cut the metal (it is metal right) axis of the Cyborg Gold down ... then grip it back together with a metal sleeve?

This would shorten the throw

Also, why not replace the hat button with a nice flat rubber or plastic replacement?

Possible? Or no

bash · Post by **bash** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:08 pm

Never got to the point of cutting the shaft down because I figured it would take too much effort and resoldering to be doing it every few months so I just raised up my wrist-rest instead to achieve roughly the same result. Regarding the big hat, I seem to recall it attaches to the cylinder inside the stick and can't just pop off the head and replace it with something else. What I initially tried to do was to make it concave like the 3DPro but I went a hair too deep with the grinding and the hat sheered off so I just de-burred the stub and found it brought my thumb nice and low to the stick like the 3DPro and let my lower thumb joint hover over the secondary switch (after cover removal) like the 3DPro does so I decided I would stop modding there and adapt since that would be a simple mod I could consistently repeat to all replacement Cyborgs.

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:36 pm

I am not thinking resoldering, using an actual metal sleeve with screws to reconnect the two halves. Maybe a little epoxy on there just to keep it rock solid.

?

Ok I have to go to Compusa and look it over to see what is possible.

Sucks for D2 though huh? WHy?

Xamindar · Post by **Xamindar** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:41 pm

Grendel: Well I put up the sidewinder driver code from the linux kernel here: http://xamindar.radnimax.com/sidewinder.c

Or you could just download the kernel source from http://kernel.org and look at it from there. That way you will have all the docs and include files if you need them.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:01 pm

Xamindar wrote:Grendel: Well I put up the sidewinder driver code from the linux kernel here: http://xamindar.radnimax.com/sidewinder.c

TYVM

Sup, the Saitek USB Gold is all plastic..

Edit: Ah, there is a patent on it..

Buef · Post by **Buef** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:52 pm

Verran wrote:We miss you Sup come back!! Bring Sickone with ya, we miss him too And Buef!

Yo V & Sup,

Aint it about time for a big "reunion Kali Fest"? I'd be there....

Good to know your keeping the faith!

Viva La Rangers!

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:30 pm

Buef wrote:
Verran wrote:We miss you Sup come back!! Bring Sickone with ya, we miss him too And Buef!
Yo V & Sup,

Aint it about time for a big "reunion Kali Fest"? I'd be there....

Good to know your keeping the faith!

Viva La Rangers!

yo Buef!

hmm sounds tempting

(I feel myself being sucked back in to this game after almost ... what ... 5 years!? LOL ... guess its tru what they always said:)

"Once you are into D, you never can really retire.

"You'll be back"

LOLOL!!!

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 2:29 am

Verran, how come you never answered the PM I sent you? Or my Kmail?

As to Mobius's post. Other then a handful of exceptions to the rule (those being some of the great KB or mouse players). Anyone who was anyone cut their teeth on descent with a 3Dpro.

I've personally used mine on a Pentum 166mhz PC with Win95 & Win98/se on it. Worked fine. When the Not Connected issue came up after I installed Win98 on that box you just set it to be a Thrustmaster Flight Control System and it worked just fine. On this Box I've used it on WinME, Win98se, Win2Kpro & WinXPpro. All of them as a Microsoft Sidewinder 3DPro and all of them work just fine.

You ever play the best of the best a good majority of them laid a smack down on your ass with one of those sticks. Which is why the majority of descenters use/used them. They're durable and accurate which is why after 9 years people still use them.

So with that being said...

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:06 am

Sup wrote: "Once you are into D, you never can really retire.

Welcome to the Hotel California.

ReadyMan · Post by **ReadyMan** » Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:25 am

There's plenty of 3dpros to be had on Ebay (I saw 4 just now)...why switch? It's still the best stick for Descent.
When I had win98, I bought a sidewinder 2 force feedback stick, and with a bit of tweaking to the settings, it felt EXACTLY like the 3dpro. It configures great.
After a bit, tho, I upgraded to win2000, and the 3dpro worked again, so I boxed u my FF stick, and went back to the original 3dpro.
It still works with XP, and I've got 4 new in the box, and 5 rebuilt, and one current stick I'm using now---all set for Core Decision.

so I guess my point is: Sup, why change sticks?
btw, nice to see you around again.

RM

Sup · Post by **Sup** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 4:34 am

ReadyMan wrote: so I guess my point is: Sup, why change sticks?

hey man ... well ...

My hat up/down is slide up/down. So I wear thru the hat contacts within a matter of months.

They are harder and harder to find.

Also, I figured it was 2005 and somebody out there might have built a twist stick that actually improved on it.

Its a great stick for D because it just happens to have most of the right features it needs. Doesnt mean its magical or perfect ... its kind of light and cheap feeling, for one.

But none of them seem to have the short throw, simplicity, and EZ button layout the Microsoft does.

SirDave · Post by **SirDave** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:21 pm

3D pro is the joy you want.

My hat button lost a direction control. I was so dedicated to the ol' Sidewinder I actually took it apart and soldered in a new switch to regain full function.

Look for a good used sidewinder pro. It has excellent hat button control and a short throw for quick maneuvers.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:53 pm

I still use the Sidewinder Precision 2... it's probably better for Descent than the PPro since the hat isn't so dinky - and it is much harder to screw up axes on.

3D Pro was a good stick apart from two problems - it was absolutely disgusting for your hand (not as bad as the old Atari control sticks but on the way there), and it had an uncanny ability to break. Had to resolder wires three or four times over the year I played Descent with it... after it started to flake apart irreparably I never bought another.

Precision 2 has developed a couple of dodgy buttons on me (they work holding the stick in some directions but not others), including hat down which is a pain in the ass - but it took three years to do it. Much more reliable.

And it has eight-way hat support for Descent, which is something the 3D Pro never did...

DarkHorse · Post by **DarkHorse** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:49 pm

Back when I was actually a decent player in D2, I used the MS Precision Pro. I had a 3D Pro before it, and it was a worse stick if anything.

Many of the best Descenters were mousers too. The Gausswhores certainly were.

As Descent goes though, all I need is two buttons, good tracking and a reasonably loose spring, and I can use it. The rest of the controls are all on the keyboard, which I have had for 11 years.

Anyway, good luck finding a sturdy stick, a lot of them break too fast now. Thrustmaster seems to be pretty good quality, but since I've never used hat switches and haven't played Descent much for about four years, I can't really say how well they'll last in Descent.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:10 am

Sirius, I'm going to disagree with a few of your statements. First of all, the 3DPro "disgusting" for your hand? I've found it's one of the most comfortable controllers of any type I've ever used. For one thing, it's small enough to fit comfortably in your hand, unlike those bloated Logitech sticks, or even my somewhat-oversized Cyborg Evo. About the ability to break, I'm constantly amazed when hearing how often people break their sticks. I've had my 3DPro for probably around 6 years, and it's in near-mint condition. Mind you, I didn't use it constantly, but even if I had, I'm willing to bet I wouldn't have broken it. It's about finesse, not force; treat her like a lady, and she'll last.

As for the 8-way hat support, I can use the 8-way hat in all 3 Descent games running in XP. As for the superiority of the PPro, I've used one, and I couldn't stand it. Hat switch too small, no button right under it, way too loose, terrible throttle. I can't remember ever having used the PPro 2, but I think I've seen pics, and I'd still prefer the 3DPro.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:05 pm

The 3DPro is also practically square in one direction.

I didn't have that many problems with it, but my sister did, I recall quite vividly...

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 1:32 pm

There were a handful of great mousers. Many of them, such as Birds, had to use a special file to increase mouse sensetivity. Default D2 1.2 had horrible mouse sensetivity so in reality it was probably necessary at the time. D2x's mouse sensetivity seems a lot more fluent.

Of course this type of thing always raised red flags with some joystick players but in the scheme of things was a counter-balance to those who used to undercalibrate their joysticks in D1 and D2 before calibration went through Windows.

I'll admit I probably was a much better player when I could undercalibrate through D1/D2. It was far more efficient then trying to do the same through Windows these days.

KlubMarcus · Post by **KlubMarcus** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:05 pm

I'll admit I probably was a much better player when I could undercalibrate through D1/D2. It was far more efficient then trying to do the same through Windows these days.

Undercalibrate? What the heck is that and won't that slow things down?

DarkHorse · Post by **DarkHorse** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:06 am

The PPro's throttle was brilliant for the way I used it (which wasn't in Descent; if you want to avoid getting killed use forward and reverse). I played FS2 at the time and loved the way it was built.

Hat switch I never tried. I couldn't say if it'd break.

No button under the hat. Sure, if you're sliding and firing missiles at the same time, it's necessary, but anywhere but Skybox I wouldn't have a problem with that (okay, again, I never used the hat). Otherwise, the PPro 2 solves all of the above problems. Honking great hat, honking great button under it, and honking great throttle control. No worries.

Why MS abandoned the Sidewinder line I'm not entirely sure. They were pretty reliable, and had there been a HOTAS in the line I'd likely have that by now.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:01 am

KlubMarcus wrote:
I'll admit I probably was a much better player when I could undercalibrate through D1/D2. It was far more efficient then trying to do the same through Windows these days.
Undercalibrate? What the heck is that and won't that slow things down?

No, it had the oppsite effect. When D1 or D2 asked you to calibrate your stick you'd just barely move it in the direction it would ask you (other then the twists) and what it did was reduced the amount of time it took to pitch either left/right or up/down.

It was a trick the majority of joy users used to increase the sensetivity on the stick and reduce the amount of time it took to turn around and make sharp angles.

kufyit · Post by **kufyit** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:42 am

I'll send you a used one for free, Sup.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:27 pm

DarkHorse wrote:Why MS abandoned the Sidewinder line I'm not entirely sure. They were pretty reliable, and had there been a HOTAS in the line I'd likely have that by now.

Eliminating XBox competition is my guess.

KlubMarcus · Post by **KlubMarcus** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:37 pm

No, it had the oppsite effect. When D1 or D2 asked you to calibrate your stick you'd just barely move it in the direction it would ask you (other then the twists) and what it did was reduced the amount of time it took to pitch either left/right or up/down.

It was a trick the majority of joy users used to increase the sensetivity on the stick and reduce the amount of time it took to turn around and make sharp angles.

I just set the sensitivity slider to max. That seemed more than enough. You guys must be flying extra twitchy.